SoulStirred: Stories of Growth And The Human Experience

Emily Garcia (00:03)
Welcome lovely listeners to SoulStirred Stories of Growth and the Human Experience. I'm Emily Garcia. And I'm Kasey Clark. We will be your guides on this journey. We are so glad you are here. Each week, we'll come together, sometimes with other incredible thinkers, creators, and adventurers, to generously share stories of self-discovery, recovery, triumph, and what it means to live a life on purpose. No matter where you are in your own journey,

connection is here for you at SoulStirred Settle in, take a deep breath in, and let's inspire each other. Welcome to SoulStirred

Emily (00:48)
Welcome back, SoulStard listeners. Today we are here with Denise Shannon. Denise is a passionate, joyful, empathetic and compassionate pastor who is a caregiver and provides a peaceful presence and a sense of hope and encouragement to others. She connects with others and meets them authentically wherever they are.

by listening to them openly and actively without judgment. She supports others in discerning their needs and facilitates their growth to bring the best out of them. Denise is from Denver and is married to Jerry. They have three children, Kelly, Allison, and Logan, and two grandchildren, Cheyenne and Eli. Her loves include the great outdoors, reading, cooking, hiking, Bible, journaling, and traveling.

Denise is a graduate of the Iliff School of Theology and has her master's in divinity with certificates in biblical studies and leadership and organizational management. She was honored with the Ronald E. Sleath Preaching Award in 2017 and is entering her fifth year serving as the pastor of a Presbyterian church. Denise also serves as a hospice chaplain offering spiritual care and advanced care planning assistance to those at the end of their life.

She has been a nurse for 32 years with 26 of those being in the hospice field. That's incredible. Denise has experienced not only at the bedside, but has used her skills and passion in caring for older adults to help start Hospice Covenant Care in 2009. Her passions include spiritual formation of all ages, but she gets the most excited in facilitating creative intergenerational ways.

to bring people closer to their ministry. She is a certified SoulCollage facilitator and she is the founder and owner of Sassy Preacher Lady Ministries. Let me repeat that, Sassy Preacher Lady Ministries. I love the name, it's so cool. Welcome, Denise.

Denise Shannon (02:50)
Thank you. Thank you.

Kasey (02:53)
I'm in love with the marriage of sassy and spiritual leadership. That's what just electrified and lit things up inside of me, Denise. Thanks for being with us today. Denise is here as part of our, I think we've been sort of producing a series of powerful women leaders this past.

like months and in our most recent episodes. And now here we have another one, a servant leader who also happens to be sassy. I'm thrilled to have you on the show. Denise, tell us a little bit about who you are and your story, how you became to be a sassy spiritual leader.

Denise Shannon (03:37)
Hahaha.

Well, the sassy part comes from, really it actually came from my husband, but I think that it actually is probably a good description of me throughout my whole life. I usually just don't follow the rules and do things all like you should sometimes. I like to kind of think outside the box and be bigger than that. So I think it's probably followed me all my life. I've just been recent years when,

Emily (03:45)
you

Denise Shannon (04:08)
I was called Sassy and after I became a pastor and had become ordained, that's when my husband started calling me Sassy Preacher Lady and it just kind of stuck. And so I thought it was a fun, fun way to name my business and launch that. So that's kind of how that came to be. But, you know, I have quite the story. I am a native of Colorado.

And I just have always felt like I wanted to serve others. I've always been that person who led the organizations or the clubs at school, but they were always service oriented. So they were like the Red Cross or doing the mission projects of some kind, filling boxes for the homeless, all of those kinds of things. So I've always had this sense of,

wanting to serve others. And sometimes that can be, you know, hard to do, but it's always something that has given me great joy. And so I graduated from high school, but then I really thought I didn't know what I wanted to do in life and was trying to figure that out. I came from a long line of people in business and finance, and it seemed like that was the...

the thing to do and so I went to college to do that. And within the first semester of college, I absolutely hated that. Couldn't stand numbers, couldn't stand all of those kind of different things and dropped out of college, which was like, you know, to my parents was like, my gosh, what are you doing? And I just didn't feel like spending the money on something I didn't know what I was gonna be doing with, you know, what would I do with it? So,

Kasey (05:44)
Hmm.

Denise Shannon (06:05)
I worked for a while and I came across one day this book that my mother always put together. It was kind of like, you know, your 12 years of childhood book with your picture and what pets you had and what kinds of things you like to do and your report cards. And it always asked a question every year of what do you want to be when you grow up?

And I filled that in every year and it never had dawned on me what I had written there. And when I opened up this book every year, with the exception of one had that I wanted to be a nurse. And the only other thing that I wanted to be one year was a teacher instead, but so both servant type of careers. And it was surprising to me, you know, it was like, I guess maybe I should consider that.

Kasey (06:45)
Hmm.

Yeah.

Denise Shannon (07:01)
and look into that. And I was kind of scared because I didn't want to jump right in and go to school and then find out I hated that too. And, you know, just didn't figure it out. So I became a medical assistant, which was only a six month program and found by doing that, that I loved it. I love taking care of others. I love being present with others. I love just...

Kasey (07:10)
Hmm.

Mm.

Denise Shannon (07:29)
making them feel comfortable and making them feel welcome and taken care of. And so that launched me into a long career as a nurse. So that's where it started anyway. Yeah.

Emily (07:46)
How cool. I read one time that when we are unsure of what we want to do in our lives, think back to when you were seven to nine years old and the things that you wanted to be and the way that you played because that is part of your purpose in the world. And all but one year of 12 years, the fact that you had nurse, that says a lot. And also you are a teacher now.

Kasey (07:46)
Wow.

Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (08:09)
Yes, yes, I am. Yeah.

Emily (08:14)
Yeah.

Kasey (08:14)
Yeah, it's like an affirmation to trust the childlike parts of ourselves because maybe that's where the wisdom lives, right? Before the adult stuff got in there and said go to business school instead, even though that's not who you are.

Denise Shannon (08:23)
I would agree.

Right, right. Yeah, I would agree with that. It's just, it was crazy to even like have that kind of open up and it was like, huh.

Kasey (08:38)
I do know what I want and I have known what I want since I was like five years old. I just was led to believe something different. Yeah. Yeah.

Denise Shannon (08:45)
Yep, that's true. But then, you know, a lot of people just, sometimes they judge you about what you do. So it's like some people go into a career, I'm not sure this is true as much anymore, but people go into a career and they're gonna live out their lives in that career. And they're not gonna jump around or they're not gonna change jobs. And I just found myself, even as a nurse,

I changed jobs a lot, which nursing gives you that opportunity a lot. But it's interesting to me because about every five to seven years, I get a little antsy. I feel like there's more. I have more to give, I have more to offer. And so I did a lot of different jobs in nursing and somehow landed in the hospice world. That was not an intention of mine at all.

It just came kind of naturally. I was looking for something different to do. And I applied for this. It was actually an education position to do education for staff who worked at the hospice. And that's where I started. And actually, I guess, technically have never really left. I've changed the things I do for them, but just fell in love with being with people.

at the end of their lives, listening to stories and listening to the richness that really everybody's life has, no matter whether it was a great life, whether it was troubled or, you know, whatever went on for them. There's these great and wonderful stories that you get and you really get a sense of a person. And that's what I loved about hospice is we get real excited about newborn babies.

in as a nurse, you know, newborns and doing that kind of end, that end of life. But at the very end of people's lives, there's such a richness. And I really came to love being present for those people, being open, being an active listener, letting them recall all of the things that made them who they were. And somehow then honoring and celebrating that at this

Kasey (11:05)
Hmm.

Denise Shannon (11:10)
you know, at the time of life that, you know, was, you know, didn't have many days left, but it was really important. And their legacy, basically talking about what was their legacy in life and being able to find that for just about everybody. Everybody has a legacy. Yeah.

Kasey (11:28)
Yeah. Well, it's really touching. I'm thinking about what a tender and fragile time that is for most people, right? Like the dying process, saying goodbye to a loved one, all of the tricky emotions that come with the experience of grief and loss. And again, you find you.

Denise Shannon (11:40)
that's right.

in.

Mm -hmm.

Kasey (11:56)
with this special heart of yours right in the middle of that situation in a way that's helping to facilitate surfacing the richness that's here through grief. I just wonder what we might could learn from you. Like, do you remember from that experience any nuggets that you'd like to share with us in our audience about some of those rich pieces of gold that come?

Denise Shannon (12:06)
them.

Kasey (12:25)
through that dying and death process, because it's really a sacred space to get to be in as an alive human, yes.

Denise Shannon (12:34)
Yes, it is. It is. And yeah, I mean, there are, wow, there are probably hundreds, but I, I think that really, for me, what really stands out and I think is true for all of us is the value and the importance of the relationships that we have throughout our lives. and how sometimes it's very sad to listen to how.

Families have become estranged. Families have been fighting for years. You know, I've never seen my grandson. That's my only dying wish is to see my grandson who I've never seen. And I think it really does bring to light that it is the relationships and our intentionality around those relationships throughout our lives that will dictate really,

how hard that end of lifetime becomes, because that's what becomes important at that period of time. Nothing else matters. It doesn't matter what you did for a living, doesn't matter how much money you made, it doesn't matter. Anything else really, except for the relationships along the way. And if they weren't good, or if they weren't what we thought they should be, that's what holds people, that's what people hold onto. And they want to reconcile that.

Kasey (14:00)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (14:01)
at that period of time. And sometimes they can, you know, sometimes I have helped facilitate that, which is a beautiful thing. And sometimes it's not because perhaps even the other person refuses to come together, but it really does bring to light that it is relationships that matter. And especially at this time of their life, at the end of their life.

Kasey (14:03)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. I think that's such a vital lesson for us all to hear, especially we know that's right. Like the human experience has so many of us up to being fueled by or having worries for what am I going to do for a living? How will I make enough money? How will I support or provide for my family and the people I love? And just really to highlight the message you just offered, which is in the end, none of that matters.

Denise Shannon (14:32)
Yeah.

Right.

Nope. Nope.

Kasey (15:02)
In the end, what really matters is did I love well? And did I allow myself to be loved well? And it sounds like you're even saying, depending on the answer to that question, like that's the one last thing most of us really care about cleaning up before we go to the other side, is do the people that I love know that I love them?

Emily (15:29)
As you were saying that, I was thinking about my dad and he had been pretty much estranged from his two younger brothers for many years and he didn't know and we didn't know that he was going to die. But two months before he died, I had a conversation with him and he said,

Denise Shannon (15:29)
Very important.

Emily (15:50)
You know, the things with my brothers, you just have to let it go and you have to forgive and you have to move on. And I've wondered many times since he's been gone, if some spiritual part of him knew, even if he, you know, in his brain, logically, he had no idea it was the end. But if he was working through some of those things that happened at the end, because you said sometimes the other person is not willing to reconcile, but that we don't always need.

other person. Sometimes the reconciling is just our own internal story and releasing the attachment to our story about the relationship. I think that's part of it. Is that what you've experienced?

Denise Shannon (16:34)
Sorry, yes. Yes, I think that's true. I think people can do their own work with that, even if you don't have that other person available or they refuse. But, and a lot of it is about forgiveness, right? Can we forgive whatever it is that put you apart in the first place? And, you know, we hold on to so much in our life because we like control, I think.

I like to control things. I think most of us do. And we like to control, you know, that I'm going to hold onto that because it wasn't good. It wasn't fair. It wasn't nice. It wasn't whatever the story is. And sometimes it just comes down to, you know, we hold ourselves back when we don't forgive and we hold on to those things and we don't live with joy and we don't live out our lives the way that maybe we want to live because we are holding back.

Kasey (17:03)
Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (17:33)
So it is a beautiful thing if you can get somebody to even get to that spot, to forgive and to let go and know that, you know, know that it all is going to work out and it's all going to be okay. And, you know, I even do that now, even now that I'm, you know, a pastor and a chaplain, just listening to people in that sense, because no matter what you believe, it doesn't matter what religion or spirituality or

Kasey (17:46)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (18:02)
anything that you believe or not believe, there does come this time at end of life that those questions do come up. Like what was important? What did I matter? Did I make a difference? And now what's gonna happen? So that's a really great question too that comes up. Like, well, now what? And...

Emily (18:25)
Yeah.

Kasey (18:25)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (18:26)
You know, I do have this dream of writing a book someday when I can find the time to talk about kind of that role of not only faith, but spirituality at the end of life. Because I think we're all spiritual human beings. We don't all have to believe in the same thing or believe the same way. But I believe we have our spiritual being is there.

Kasey (18:42)
Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (18:56)
And I think it is a really important piece at the end of life specifically. And what I've seen happen is when people have a faith or have a spirituality that maybe they read or they practice in some way, I find that there's a little bit more peace at the end of life for people. They're not as anxious. They're not as fearful, not as, you know, like,

not knowing what is next, where when you don't have it or have any of that, or you say you don't have any of that, there's a lot more fear and anxiety and like, yeah, I'm getting to the end of my life, but I don't, I really don't know what's next. And I don't have a sense of some foundation or some peace in that. And so I really do think there's a role that faith and spirituality play.

at this end of life for people. And I've seen it enough where people can really struggle at the end of life when they just don't, they don't have something to hang on to, whatever it might be. And so someday that book will come out. Then I'll have to come back and talk about it, but yeah. Yeah.

Kasey (20:05)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Emily (20:12)
Yeah. I will buy it. When you have written it, I will be one of your first buyers. I think it's a needed book because there is all of the nuance. I think we can just go through life in a very secular world and thinking it is just what it is. But when we experience, I think it's also true for the people who are living. When their loved one passes away, we all want to understand where have they gone?

Kasey (20:21)
Yeah.

Emily (20:40)
And when my dad died, my daughter said, where do you think Poppy went? And I said, I don't know. I don't know what I believe. And it was a time of reckoning for me of going, what do I believe? Where did he go? And is he still here? Is his soul still here? Are there signs of him? And I really had to figure out for myself what that meant. So we need it whether we're the ones passing away or we're the ones that are living after they're gone. It's...

Denise Shannon (21:02)
Yes.

Kasey (21:02)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (21:08)
Yes. Yeah.

Emily (21:09)
a really amazing thing. What made you, after being a nurse for so long, or during the time you were a nurse, what made you decide to go back to school for divinity?

Denise Shannon (21:21)
Well, that was really, yeah, that was really funny. I just, I started having this inkling that I was supposed to be doing something different and I didn't know what it was. The weird thing about it, and people think this is weird, I had, as a nurse, I had worked myself up to, you know, upper level management by all...

Other accounts, people would say that you've made it to the top and you're just going to ride it out until you retire, which for a lot of people probably makes perfect sense. But I just had this sense that something else was brewing. And I was asked at the church that my husband and I were going to at the time, I was asked to.

to do the message during church one day while our pastor was on sabbatical. And they were using congregational members to give the messages while he was gone. And I thought, yeah, I'll do that. I could do that. I had been like a worship leader prior to that. Like I could do prayers. I could do all of those kinds of things. But I thought, well, that'll be a neat experience. Well, I had the benefit of.

being the last out of this, I don't know, three months sabbatical he took, I was the last one. So I was the last one that was gonna give the message. And I found myself just absolutely enthralled with the process and loved doing the research and loved learning more than when I knew and coming up with this message that I hope made some impact on somebody that day.

And I just loved it. Like I fell in love with that process. And I didn't even still think much of it. And I just kept getting this little, I felt it's, for me, it was a calling. And for me, it was God, God calling me to do something else. And I kept kind of pushing it away. Like that's crazy. Like who does that? Right? And I was headed towards 50, like age 50, like,

No, I should be like headed towards retirement. And I just kept, you know, I even had these wonderful conversations, you know, with the God that I believe in. And I'm just like, you're crazy. You are crazy. And I still have that conversation, by the way. So, you know.

Kasey (23:51)
Yeah.

Yeah, Denise, your sass is showing. The woman who took God, who's crazy when he starts sending her messages. You're crazy! This can't be what you have in mind for me.

Denise Shannon (23:58)
I do it!

Why would I want to be a preacher? my goodness. But anyway, it just, it kind of festered, right? It just kept going and I kept putting it off. And one day, you know, there was came a time when it just was too strong. It was like, okay, fine. I'll go look into it. So knowing I, you know, I still had kids in school and I'm like, I,

I can't leave Colorado. This is our home. This is where we are. And so I went to the different schools that are local and walked into Iliff School of Theology and just met some phenomenal people, most of them who didn't believe anything I believed. They believed totally different things than I did. And I just found that incredibly fascinating and incredibly

like engaging for me to be actually have conversations, real conversations with people who don't think like I think. And I thought, wow, if anything, that would be reason enough, right, to go. And so I did. So I, you know, at age 50, I started seminary and went through it. And through the process, I, you know, I happened to be a member of a Presbyterian church, but

Kasey (25:03)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Denise Shannon (25:25)
And I went through the process through that church to become ordained, which was is a whole nother story. That would be a day's worth of story. But it so I did. So in 20, literally in 2020, I was ordained as a pastor in the Presbyterian Church. And it and then started my call. I did I do a part time.

position at a country rural church, which is totally out of my comfort zone because I'm a city girl. So I'm out with the cows. I'm out with the corn and the wheat and I know all about that now. I never would have known anything about those things. So I do that part -time and love that part of it.

Kasey (25:57)
Mm -hmm.

Emily (26:05)
Thank you.

Kasey (26:05)
Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (26:12)
And, you know, just love doing that too. So I love preaching. I love writing the sermon. I love pastoral care. So I love again, sitting with people, being with people, listening to people's stories and making meaning, helping to make meaning out of those things. So, so it seems like kind of a, maybe a normal transition as you think about it retrospectively, but it wasn't at all when I, when I got into it.

Kasey (26:38)
Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (26:42)
You know, my husband still gives me a hard time. He goes, yeah, let me get this straight. You left a high paying position to go back to school and get into debt for something that doesn't pay hardly anything. Yep. That's what I did. That's my, that's what I did. Yeah.

Kasey (26:53)
Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

Emily (26:58)
Yeah.

Kasey (27:03)
You know what though, it's an incredible story and you are absolutely a woman of God. I want to celebrate the fact that you dropped out of business and finance school, knowing like I wasn't made for this. I was made for something different, something bigger. And the same thing with your nursing career, getting to the point where, you know, when we were talking a minute ago about,

Denise Shannon (27:06)
Yeah.

Yeah. Thank goodness.

Kasey (27:33)
the time that you spent in hospice and what you learned from the people who were navigating their way through the dying process. And it occurs to me, you know, there's that quote that many people think that we are having a human experience that sometimes is spiritual. When in my opinion, the truth is we are spiritual beings having a human experience. And you, what I'm hearing is this theme of living really tuned in.

Denise Shannon (27:53)
Right. Yes. Yeah.

Kasey (28:03)
to the spiritual experience and knowing when parts of the human experience are not fitting for you, it is because you are being called, you're being tapped on the shoulder by spirit to say, no, not this. For you, it's not about securing a financially comfortable retirement. For you, it's about servant leadership.

Denise Shannon (28:10)
Mm -hmm.

Kasey (28:25)
and you have more to learn and your voice needs to be part of these conversations where people are talking about differences in belief. You're meant to be there. I just, I love how you've heard, you call it an inkling. And I love the way that you've listened to the inklings along the way, how it's put you on the just right path. I just think that's really neat. Yeah. Yeah.

Denise Shannon (28:33)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

How?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Say yeah.

Kasey (28:55)
So what are you, what is your business up to now? I thought there was something in here about funerals and weddings and celebrations of love and life.

Denise Shannon (29:07)
I do, I do. So I, you know, like I said, I part -time pastor this church and my, the rest of the time that I spend, I have my business and it's really, it's a combination of things really. I, because I believe that weddings and celebrations of life are really important things that shouldn't be, you know, just wrote or template made, they should be individualized and customized. That's what I do.

I would, I customize events for people. I customize those real specific events to make them grand, to make them important, to make them the important part of the day. Like, you know, weddings, we like the cake, we like the photographer, we like all that. But really it's the ceremony that, you know, you're coming together to people, whoever they are, coming together to share their love and to share their story with others. And,

I think that's really important and it takes time and effort and it's not something that you can just do off of a, you know, one template that you do for everybody. And I've been to enough weddings that do that, that it's just, it's boring and it's not special. And, it should be special. So that's my, my business is about making those times special and really honoring the story behind it. And so,

That's what I do on my other part of life. And I also can create retreats and workshops around a lot of different things around this idea of our spiritual experiences. And I've done both Presbyterian workshops and I've done not, I've actually done one that was more Buddhist related, which was really fascinating. But so again, just coming from that standpoint of,

All our beliefs are true and all of our beliefs are, you know, we want them to be important and to be honored. There's no right belief over another one, I believe. So I really just want to honor that and be able to be that person who can facilitate that event, whatever that might be. So that's how that came about.

Kasey (31:25)
Hmm.

You are a celebrant of love.

Denise Shannon (31:31)
Yeah, yeah. That's good. I like that. Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (31:32)
Yeah, yeah. I kind of think it's an interesting thing because I have a picture of, you know, like a jigsaw puzzle and all these pieces that fit together that you're like, is that the piece really? And that's been your career, but it also is your life story that has gotten you to here. And I think the wisdom of your own life story is what makes you, I'm sure it makes you really good at

Kasey (31:33)
and all of the many ways and shapes that it takes. Yeah.

Emily (32:00)
creating these events because you have all of that wisdom that you can put into it and go, I know what is really special. And it's not the same script that everyone would use. Yeah.

Denise Shannon (32:07)
Mm -hmm.

Kasey (32:08)
Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (32:10)
No, no, it might be really off the wall. Sometimes

Emily (32:14)
if you could picture your life five years from now, what do you think it's going to look like?

Denise Shannon (32:20)
my goodness. Since it's never looked the way I thought it would. Yeah.

Kasey (32:22)
Hmm.

Heheheheh

Emily (32:28)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (32:30)
you know, I hope to be just, you know, continuing to serve and in some capacity. And, you know, I'd like to think that all of my experience, all of my education, all of my, you know, everything that I've done will continue to serve me so that I can serve others so I can be present in their lives, so I can listen to their story and be,

be there, like truly be there for people so that they feel heard and that they feel that whatever it is that's going on in their lives is important. And so I do. And so I've recently actually gone back to finish my spiritual direction certification so I can add that into the repertoire, if you will, of helping people themselves. Like what's going on, you know, things that are

kind of going on inside of them and they're not quite sure, like, where is this coming from or what does this mean or how does this fit into my life? So I'm hoping to be able to be there for people in that situation as well. You know, I mean, I'm headed towards retirement, so I'll be 61 this year. So most people would say I want to slow down. I don't really say that. I'm probably going to work for a while.

Emily (33:56)
Thank you.

Kasey (33:58)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (33:59)
You know, I got to pay off those student loans that I accumulated. But I just, you know, I don't know. And I like to keep myself open because you know what, maybe it's something different. I don't know. You know?

Kasey (34:13)
Mm -hmm.

Emily (34:13)
Yeah. When I graduated from college, my best friend was graduating from University of Denver and I went to her graduation and the speaker at it was the guy who created C -SPAN. And he is up on stage giving the keynote or the graduation speech. And he said, I know that many of you or most of you are really stressed now about what are you going to do when you grow up? What are you going to do with your lives? He said,

Denise Shannon (34:25)
-huh.

Emily (34:41)
I am on my, I think he said seventh career. And he said, nothing that I have done was ever anything I could have imagined. And here I am. And I think he was 65 at the time. He said, I'm 65. I'm on my seventh career and I'm standing in front of you. And I have no idea what I want to do when I grow up. So he was like, just be okay with you. We'll figure it out. And you will figure it out over and over in your life. And it's such a good message because.

Kasey (34:49)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Denise Shannon (35:06)
I'm there. Yep. That is.

Kasey (35:06)
Mm -hmm.

Emily (35:10)
His speech just is in my mind like every time I go, what am I going to do? It's okay. We all figure it out because we just keep finding the pieces that work in our puzzle.

Denise Shannon (35:17)
If they can.

Kasey (35:17)
Thank you.

Denise Shannon (35:21)
Yeah, and it might change, you know, and I think we have to be open to that. That's how I tell it. So if I tell my children, because they get all uptight, you know, come to graduation, you're 18 years old, you don't know what you're going to do. You know, I didn't know, you know, I still don't know. So, you know, it can be whatever.

Kasey (35:21)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Emily (35:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kasey (35:44)
What you think you want might change, and for sure, you will change. So don't spend too much energy trying to figure anything out. One of the things I think I'm learning at 52 is life isn't a thing that wants to be figured out. Life is a thing that wants to be felt your way through.

Denise Shannon (35:51)
Yeah, for sure.

And experienced. And when we have too many preconceived ideas, that's, I believe that's when we lose the joy in it. So there's so much that can be joyful and we like to put it in the little box. Yeah. Yeah.

Kasey (36:16)
Please.

Yeah, yeah. And if we can.

Emily (36:23)
Yeah. Allow the joy to be there every day in little moments and in all the things we do, not just like, when I feel like I can get to it. Yeah. I do have a question. What is spiritual direction?

Denise Shannon (36:27)
Yes.

Yep, that's true. That is very true. Yeah.

Kasey (36:33)
Exactly. Exactly.

Mmm.

Denise Shannon (36:40)
You know, it's a really good question, because it can be really confusing, I think. And it's actually, that's really a weird name. I really like to call it more like spiritual companioning or journeying. So because it's really not about me directing, and it really is just about allowing the space for people.

Kasey (36:52)
Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (37:04)
to kind of dig deeper into their maybe spiritual, maybe religious life, could be, and see what might the universe or God or whoever that might be for people be saying to you about a certain situation, about your life, about a relationship that you might have that you're struggling with. And it's really about just being present and listening.

I don't do a lot of talking. I really just am there. I might give a little bit, have you ever thought of, or what I'm hearing is these kinds of things. Both of you are kind of very familiar with doing that, but it really is kind of more in the kind of that spiritual realm. Like is there something that's stirring in your soul that we could explore together?

Kasey (37:34)
Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (38:01)
that might give you some direction or give you some ideas about a certain either situation or like I said, relationship. And it's different for everybody. I've done a couple in my training that they're both totally different. Like what comes up is totally different and the paths that they're taking are totally different. And so I'm kind of excited about being able to maybe offer that to other people.

Kasey (38:31)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (38:31)
as a way to help, you know, as either an adjunct to other therapy or just as a way of being heard. I don't really look at it as too much different as pastoral care that I already do, except that I have a little bit more training now, you know, to back it up, I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Kasey (38:41)
You're going to.

Emily (38:50)
Yeah, it's all part of our well -being in that spirituality is part of the pie. And sometimes we can ignore it and forget that it's there. And then there are those moments where God or universe or spirit or whatever people refer to, they're like, I'm feeling it. I know I have to turn and look at this thing that's going on inside of me that's stirring in my soul. Yeah.

Kasey (38:50)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (38:56)
Good.

Yes, yes, for sure, for sure. And I think people don't know how to do that sometimes, because we're not taught that. And so helping people, and that's why I like kind of spiritual companioning instead, just walking with you and not directing you necessarily. But you can come up with your own answers when you stop and think and.

Kasey (39:16)
Mm -hmm.

Right.

Emily (39:40)
Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (39:43)
you know, very flacked on those kinds of things. People oftentimes already have the answer and they just need a little help getting there. Yeah.

Kasey (39:49)
Mm -hmm.

Emily (39:53)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kasey (39:53)
You help people learn how to listen beyond themselves. How do I listen to something beyond the noise inside my own head and let it point me where I might be meant to go next? Yeah. Love that.

Denise Shannon (39:55)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Mm -hmm. Yep, exactly. Exactly. So yes.

Emily (40:13)
I also think it's a little bit of getting, allowing some stillness so that we can actually hear the things that are going on outside of our rational brain. Yeah.

Denise Shannon (40:23)
Yes. And sometimes you have to do that in a, you know, in more of a, you know, kind of a structured setting, right? Just, or a structured timeframe or in order to do that. Cause otherwise we just go, go, go, go, go. And the world has so much to say to us. So.

Kasey (40:42)
get caught up in the human experience. That we forget that we are always being guided by spirit and something larger than ourselves. That if we can get quiet and still and present and tune in and listen, there might just be something beyond me that wants something with me or through me. I love that.

Emily (40:42)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (40:43)
Exactly, absolutely.

that.

right? Yep.

That's right.

Yeah. Yeah. And you too could be being called to being a preacher. I mean, you never know.

Kasey (41:11)
Yes, I feel it bigly, Denise. You know, before we hit record today, you said something that I think is relevant here that you wanted our listeners to know about all of us being in a ministry or part of a ministry. I want to make sure I give you the chance to have that be heard because those words are important.

Denise Shannon (41:14)
hahahaha

Mm -hmm. Yep.

I think, yeah, thank you for bringing that back up. I just have always felt like no matter what you do, whether it be some big career that you've thought you were gonna do all of your life, I have friends that have done the same thing all their lives, loved it, did great. But whatever they do, it is a ministry. You are ministering to others in some capacity.

no matter what you do, if you could be, you know, you can be the receptionist and you're ministering to others, you're answering that phone, you're helping people, you're, you know, you're giving, you know, giving help perhaps. So I just, I've always really felt like everything I've done in my life is a ministry. It is something that serves others and it's something that helps others. And I really believe that that's why we're all put here.

on earth. That is the reason why we are here is to relate with one another, to love one another, and to help one another. And if we all could do that every day, all the time, what a better world it would be. But each of us have that opportunity to minister to another every single day of our lives. And we should take advantage of that opportunity.

Kasey (42:32)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Thank you.

Yeah, it's like you're saying your presence matters. Whether you're the tract collector or the file clerk or the pastoral care person, the nurse, the podcaster, the therapist, the waitress, the bartender, your presence matters. And you are important and there is an impact waiting to be had by you on another person.

Denise Shannon (43:01)
Yes. Yes.

You matter, yeah, it does matter.

Mm -hmm. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yep. And we all have to remember that. That we do. We all have that inside of us in order to offer to the outside. So whatever you can do today is important. And just do it. Don't hold back. Yeah.

Kasey (43:26)
Yeah.

It's reminiscent for me when I've gotten to, you know, sort of downside times in my life when what I'll say is my ego has taken over and I've been feeling really sad or like, what am I for? I'm not sure how to go forward. The vehicle that has always propelled me back to life is service of someone else. If I can find a way to be of service to someone else, suddenly I remember what I'm for.

Denise Shannon (44:06)
Yes.

Yes.

Kasey (44:15)
and that I'm on purpose and it brings me back to life in some way. That's what I hear you describing.

Denise Shannon (44:20)
That is perfect, Casey, that's perfect, yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Emily (44:25)
Yeah. There is something interesting that when I read your bio and your bio really does emphasize you and your family and the relationships. And then when you talked about hospice care, you talked about the relationships being the most important. And I really do think that I just wanted to note that because you live by what you preach.

Kasey (44:26)
Yeah.

Emily (44:55)
that the relationships in your life, the fact that you, I mean, it really is important in your bio. They're, they're named and they are included and they are a part of your story and who you are and that that's what you're doing as a hospice chaplain. And in your, in your service as sassy preacher lady, that you are really thinking about people in their relationships. So I don't know that there's a question in that, but really it occurred to me while you were talking that that is so notable.

Denise Shannon (44:56)
That's right.

yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah, all of those people are important. You know, everybody's important. I'm always, you know, wish I had more time for all of them, all of my friends and everybody, but it, but I know it takes intentionality to do, to, to have those relationships. They don't just happen. And so it's really important. And I don't want to get to the end of my life and regret.

Kasey (45:24)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Denise Shannon (45:51)
and have estranged relationships, not if I can help it. So.

Emily (45:58)
Yeah, I bet you've learned as much as you've taught in that role.

Kasey (45:58)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (46:02)
Yeah, yeah, I have. Yeah, you do. You learn a lot of life lessons, which I'm grateful for, you know, not having to learn at that particular time. So yeah, for sure.

Emily (46:04)
Yeah.

Yeah. Is there anything we haven't asked you that is important?

Denise Shannon (46:19)
Wow, I think you just, you know, you've asked a lot. I think, you know, I think that's really, you know, my message. I just think that, you know, everything you do matters. Everything you do is a ministry to others and it doesn't matter your age and it doesn't matter your age because you might have another calling coming soon and you should heed it because guess what? We only, I, you know, we only have this life that we are,

Kasey (46:42)
Yeah.

Denise Shannon (46:49)
that we know of, right? And, you know, that's our opportunities to follow in the footsteps of those callings that we might be having, or inklings, if you will. But I think it's really important. And it doesn't matter your age, and it doesn't matter what you do. So, yeah.

Kasey (47:10)
Listen for the inklings, trust their guidance and follow accordingly. It would be like a fallacy to assume that the inkling is the end.

Denise Shannon (47:11)
Yeah, let's go for the influence.

Yes.

Correct, correct, because it's not.

Kasey (47:25)
but follow the antlings and the path will unfold for you that'll get you to the end you were meant to get to. Yeah. Yeah. you have filled my soul with color today, Denise. Truly, I feel like I'm all full of rainbow inside now in a way that I wasn't an hour ago. Really, I mean what you've done is reminded me.

Denise Shannon (47:32)
Right, right. Yeah.

Aww.

Thank you.

mouth then that, yep.

Kasey (47:54)
of who I am and where I come from and what I'm made of and how none of that is the human garbage that I tend to spend time worrying about on a daily basis. So here you are having your impact again. I'm just so grateful that we got to have this time together. Yeah.

Denise Shannon (48:07)
Right.

Yeah, this was great. This was great. I appreciate the opportunity. It was, that's really truly great.

Emily (48:22)
We are going to end with our one last question, which is, what are you grateful for? So Denise, what are you grateful for today?

Denise Shannon (48:31)
Well, I think really what I am always grateful for is just the opportunity to make a difference in the world every single day. And that opportunity is there. And I just, I'm very grateful that I can seize the moment and I can make a difference in some way. So, you know, I got up this morning. I'm very grateful for that.

And very grateful that that just allows me then to proceed throughout the day and the way that I want to show up for people. So, yeah.

Kasey (49:08)
Yeah. Well.

Emily (49:10)
Beautiful. Thank you. Well, Soul Stard listeners, thank you for joining us. If you have questions for Denise or you have a topic you want to hear on the show, please write to us. soulstardpodcasts at gmail .com. We would love to hear from you. You can also find us on Instagram, Soul Stard Podcast. And we are so grateful that you have spent the time hearing us and hearing Denise today.

Have a great day.

Kasey (49:40)
Take good care of yourselves and each other. Bye bye.